Right, the gentlemen would like to know what Mr. Liliekas’ view from the Scripture would be about the possession of the Holy Spirit to performing something akin to the incident of Ananias and Sapphira’s death for their blasphemy.
Well, one thing’s for sure, it would certainly straighten the church out, wouldn’t it! We would see an end of a lot of things, if that went on!
I would say, I understand what Duncan was saying where he said about gifts being under the control of the person but they aren’t entirely. Here’s what happens. God metes out the judgment that’s due in those cases. Usually those things normally happen in churches where there is a very high revival state and level of holiness. I have seen it clearly where people, in a big service like this, where someone who has a prophetic gift on the platform would say, “Sir, you up there with the whatever, red or blue suit, stand up. God is speaking to you. If you don’t repent of such – and – such a sin judgment will come on you, this is your last chance”. We do not understand everything that has been going on in the man’s heart. I mean, that’s difficult to say, that is not our job. But these things happen, I have seen them myself. I have heard of cases second-hand of people who have died after a discipline problem in the church because they wouldn’t repent. Sometimes in the States and in this country, more so in Third World countries. Why more so in Third World countries? Because there is a much higher level of faith for the Holy Spirit to function. Again, this is an area where you have to try and second-guess God. I don’t exactly know when and how it would happen. I am sure of one thing, you’d put the fear of death into a lot of people if you could do it! I don’t know how and when it would happen, but I would say it is still valid today. I have heard of cases where it has happened and I’ve seen the same sort of disciplinary revelations given to leaders in church. I have been in many big services in the States. Those revelations that were given to, let’s say, the man in the blue suit sitting in the balcony have caused the man to repent and get right with God and he says, “if I wasn’t dragged out at that time and I hadn’t been exposed, I don’t know what would have happened to me”. So my answer is that God still does those things and I would say that the same thing would be true. What I have seen is that normally it’s in churches where there is a very high level of holiness and where God is really doing something in that church. In a church where there’s lots of compromise, you do not get those kinds of things. Otherwise (and I’m talking about spirit filled churches now) you don’t get those things. As it would be the kettle calling the pot black. God isn’t going to use lukewarm leaders to discipline people who are just living the same as themselves.
Why is it that Baptists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, Evangelicals, Roman Catholics all claim to be led by the spirit in the personal sense and yet believe and teach many different doctrines?
Why is it that people who are led by the Holy Spirit arrive at different doctrinal conclusions – sometimes radically different? That is the 1,000 dollar question, if we knew that one…! I don’t know.
I would say this, that God is not as…See the common denominator in the Kingdom of God more than anything else is faith. It is obvious that through your Christian life, you come to different levels where you maybe see something has been true, maybe a year later, you shift a little bit on that. There is a normal growing process within Christianity and a normal education process too. The Holy Spirit does not lead everybody to the same point. Why? I don’t know. Why these people don’t have these things, I don’t know. I think sometimes, if I can just go off here a bit, often the big problem with people who don’t believe gifts are for today, is that when they look at other groups who believe radically different doctrines they would be in a situation where they would have to say, “God loves them as well and God is doing something in them as well”. I don’t know. I feel that the different doctrinal stances are maybe meant by God to develop character in us and to test the level of our love. Can you love somebody who says that they are following Christ, who says that they are serving God and keeping His commandments who believes different doctrines from you? Can you really do it? I would say that is one of the tests that God puts the church through. I am not saying that that’s necessarily what it is, but when I look at it, I think sometimes that’s what it is. It’s a very hard question to answer, it really is.
Scripture says there is one faith and one hope!
Is that a question?
Well, can you answer that!
O.K. He says, Scripture says there is one faith and one hope. Sure there is! Who says they have got it? As soon as you take that stance where you there is one faith and there is one hope, you say, we are the one true church, everybody else is the church of Babylon. What do you do? You stand on a platform of arrogance, where you can quite easily condemn people who are, maybe, more spiritual than yourself. We should be very very careful of ever making those kind of statements. All it does is you stand on a pedestal and condemn other people. I have come across groups like that who say, “Oh, yes, we are the one true church because we have such and such a doctrine, everybody else is Babylon and a false church”. Would you say that reflects the love of Christ? You have to be very very careful on those points. I would say that if people believe differently from me – Duncan believes quite radically differently from me in points – I still accept him as being a Christian, he just sees things different. I don’t negate his Christian experience, or his walk with God; I know that he would experience the same things I do if he just used the same faith principles. He is not any less a Christian. And you have to be careful when you look at these things that you do not condemn people who are maybe more Godly than I am. If somebody believes a different doctrine, it’s before their own God that they stand or fall. The Lord knows their hearts. I am very hesitant about standing on that ground, very hesitant.
The gentleman is asking what is the point of the meeting tonight if it doesn’t matter what we believe?
That is a good point! What is the point of this meeting…no I’m only kidding!!! Why are we all here, why don’t we go home!!!
I see your point. The point that is being debated is: are gifts valid for today? I think, to be honest with you, I think God is fairly tolerant of people who have differing and conflicting beliefs. He is very patient with them and God is trying to develop character in every Christian. If they don’t get some of the doctrines right, O.K. My brief from God is to love my neighbour as myself. If he believes differently from me, I still have this same command from God. It is not: when Duncan sees everything the same as me, then I have to show him love. There is no such thing in Scripture. So I think you have to be very careful that we don’t become militant defenders of the so-called “truth” to the point where we condemn other people whom God has accepted. Do you see what I am saying? In that area I am very cautious. I believe God is very tolerant. I would never be in a place, even if I see people who believe radically different doctrines, I would pray for them and I would pray that God would open their eyes, but my job is still to love them. I may have shortcomings in my life that they can see, so it depends on which ground you are standing on here.
[question is missing]
The questioner here is saying that many people are saying that there are really many different paths to God from different theologies outside Christianity. I would say, I stand corrected if I didn’t make that clear, I agree with you entirely. There is only one way to God, that is through faith and the redeeming sacrifice of Christ, let’s get that clear. But many people have many different interpretations of the peripherals. The things that are on the outside. They see baptism slightly different ways. They see church eldership and leadership in different ways, etc., etc. So I would agree with you, there is one way, but it is the peripherals where you have to have lots of love. O.K.
Thank you. Time is up on that.